Eternal Paradise

Eternal File

The Eternal Debate

     On February 13, 2005, Eternal Paradise sent out an e-mail titled "What Is Happening To The World?" to make more people aware of this site and the message it promotes.  We then became involved in a debate with an atheist named Jorge over God, and the past, present, and future of mankind.  "Believe it or not" he says, "I was actually a religious studies and philosophy major in college."  You can read the e-mail we initially sent and the correspondence that has been made between us below.  If you know someone that does not worship God, please ask them to read this entire debate.  Your lives may be eternally changed. 

 
 
Go To Post
 
1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

•           Terrorists attack the World Trade Center, claiming thousands of lives, and a war on terror begins.

 

•           A war in Iraq is waged, and the ruthless dictator Saddaam Hussein is captured.

 

•           Several hurricanes, ranging as high as a Category 5, devastate Florida and the East Coast within a short period of time.

 

•           A 9.0 Indonesian earthquake causes a massive tsunami that claims over 200,000 lives—more lives than any other natural disaster in the history of mankind.

 

•           Democratic elections in Iraq are held for the first time in history, and the United States sets out to end terrorism and spread freedom across the entire world.

 

•           A peace agreement is achieved between the Israelis and Palestinians after the sudden death of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, easing four years of conflict.

 

            The Bible says these events are signs of the End Times and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ! 

 

            One day soon, an event called The Rapture will occur where all of Christ's followers will be taken to Heaven to be spared of the coming Tribulation Period on Earth.  It will be a seven-year period of judgment for the Christ-rejecting populace that will cause more suffering and destruction than the world has ever known--asteroids, contamination of water by blood, darkness from the sun turning black and the moon becoming blood red, death, disease, drought, earthquakes, famine, fire, flooding, genocide, ecological disasters, heat waves, hurricanes, nuclear war, tornados, volcanic eruptions....  All of these will occur within this horrific time period, at an intensity the world has never known, and there will be no escape. 

 

            The Bible says the Rapture could happen at any moment.  But will you be left behind because of your rejection of Christ and His way of life and be forced to endure the Tribulation Period?  

 

            Please join us at www.eternalparadise.org, where religion, science, and news unite to reveal mankind's near future. 

 

            The years of destiny have begun....

 

 

2

 

From:  Jorge
To:  Eternal Paradise
Date:  Sunday, February 13, 2005 6:17 PM

 

Actually, I'm an atheist.  Why don't you look at the
list, and maybe you will join me on the right side.

•     Terrorists attack the World Trade Center:  you
forgot to mention that they are guided by their
religion.

•     Saddam Hussein has many followers, many of whom are
religious zealots.

•     Hurricanes and earthquakes are "acts of God," are
they not.  Therefore, they must be good.  So,
according to your beliefs, the death of hundreds of
thousands of people is a good thing and should be
celebrated.

•     Why are the Israeli's and Palestinians fighting in
the first place?  Religious differences.

Please join me and reject the horrible ignorance that
comes with religion.  Only by abandoning this
abomination called faith can we as humanity come
together.  Only atheists can appreciate the value of
life, as Christians and other religious zealots value
only those who follow their belief, abandoning and
condemning all those who differ.

 

3

 

From:  Eternal Paradise
To:  Jorge
Date:  Sunday, February 13, 2005 7:47 PM

 

You're right.  Religion is the source of much conflict.  And it might not
mean much if I say that Satan wants it to be that way so people turn away
from religion.  Through his manipulative influences, religion has become a
hot topic, just like the Holy Land of Israel is the hottest spot on the
world map.  He and his rebel angels want to do everything they can to
corrupt something that is holy.

I wouldn't say hurricanes and earthquakes are direct acts of God.  Like in
the instance of the Indonesian tsunami, I wouldn't say He directly
caused that event to punish anyone.  He built this planet, knowing mankind
would one day rebel, and faults were left in the planet's design for mankind to
endure--not to spite us, but so we can learn how to overcome and adapt and
know that the only way the world will be perfect is if people come to Him.

On the contrary, true Christians do appreciate the value of life, and true
Christians value atheists and others.  But none of this will probably
change your mind about God unless you see hard facts.  What many people
don't understand is that science--the thing unbelievers cling to the
most--proves that God exists and bashes the whole evolution theory.  I can
only do so much.  If you wish to know more about how this is true, please
ask.

Also, if you look at today's headlines and read everything the Bible has
to say about the End Times, you will see that almost every prophecy in the
Bible has come true and realize where we are at in history.  Just know
that when a mass amount of people suddenly vanish from Earth, it isn't
aliens or anything else (as some would believe), but it is an act of God.
That event is the Rapture, and it signifies that the Tribulation Period
has begun.

 

4

 

From:  Jorge
To:  Eternal Paradise
Date:  Sunday, February 13, 2005 11:14 PM

 

It is easy to blame hatred on Satan.  But you have to
remember, where did Satan come from?  He was created
by God.  God, being omniscient, knew what Satan would
do.  Perhaps Satan had free will, perhaps he did not
(another topic).  What is certain is that God created
him on purpose, with 100% certainty that Satan would
turn evil.  Why 100%?  Because he is all knowing.  He
is omniscient.

Let's tackle the topic of omniscience for a moment, a
topic that theists do not seem to comprehend.
Omniscience means that God does not "guess" what will
happen, he KNOWS what will happen.  Not just large
events, even the smallest, most insignificant event.
He knows how many times you will blink tomorrow.  He
knows the drops of water in the ocean.  He doesn't
guess, he KNOWS.  Furthermore, he has known it for
billions and billions of years. 

He knew, for example, that when he chose Adam and Eve,
that they were weak and would eat the fruit in the
Garden of Eden.  He didn't guess, he knew.  However,
he chose to put them there.  Therefore, it was his
will that they betrayed him.  He had several choices
here:

1.     Do as he did.  Place Adam and Eve in a situation
where he KNEW they would fail.

2.     Knowing they would betray him, he could have
removed/changed the scenario.   He did not.

3.     Choose (or create) a different duo, one that was
stronger in will.  He did not.  If there was no other
duo, this implies that all humanity is naturally weak.
 If so, who is to blame for that?  God, of course.  We
are his creation, and he could have created us with a
stronger will, could he not? A person/deity cannot use
the excuse of ignorance if they do not have any.  The
"Free Will" argument does not apply, as that implies a
choice.  Clearly, if God knew what would happen, they
could not have chosen otherwise.   They could not have
chosen not to eat the fruit, as God knew they would,
and put them in that situation.  Therefore, it is
God's will that they ate the fruit.

Back to Satan.  Before he created Satan, hundreds of
billions of years before (actually, infinitely
before), God knew that Satan would turn against him.
He knew that if built this being, constructed him a
certain way with certain personality traits, that
Lucifer would turn out to be Satan.  Yet, he did so
anyway.  Therefore, it was God's will, was it not?
Thus, Satan is only carrying out God's will.  If this
is so, there are only two conclusions:

1.     God is responsible for Satan's actions, making God
the origin of evil and unworthy of worship.  He
should, in fact, be despised.

2.     Since Satan is carrying out God's will, Satan is
actually good.  Therefore, all the death, plague and
atrocities carried out are actually good.

Does that seem like the religious beliefs you would
like to follow?  I'm sorry, but that is exactly what
your believe, whether you know it or not.

Topic 2:
To quote your email:
"He built this planet, knowing mankind would one day
rebel, and faults were left in the planet's design for
mankind to endure--not to spite us, but so we can
learn how to overcome and adapt and know that the only
way the world will be perfect is if people come to
Him."

Let's touch upon the most important part of that
quote:
"...faults were left in the planet's design for mankind
to endure."
This implies, by your words, that he knew what would
happen with the tsunami. He knew the exact day, hour
and second that tsunami would hit.  He knew, when he
created the earth, that 225,000 people would die by
his creating the Earth in the way he did.  He didn't
guess, he KNEW. And he did it anyway.  Therefore it is
God's will that they died.  For me, that is
unforgivable.  For you, it is a day to celebrate
another act of good.  It must have been a grand day
celebrating God killing those people, was it not?

There are many other astounding comments I would like
to touch on...perhaps another time.  However, I would
like to hear about how science proves that God exists
and how evolution is wrong.  Is it the part about the
world being millions of years old as opposed to the
theistic 5,400 years old?  Or is it the complete
absence/non-explanation of Neanderthals and dinosaurs
in the Bible.  Or, perhaps that we have proof of
cities being built that is over 12,000 years old?  Are
we going to talk about how many of the biblical tales
are actually stolen from Egyptian/Phoenician lore?

 

5

 

From:  Eternal Paradise
To:  Jorge
Date:  Monday, February 14, 2005 10:34 PM

 

            The only answer is the free will you spoke of.  If God had created us without free will, that would've have made him a dictator.  He would have forced everyone to worship Him and never experience true affection.  No one would have the chance to endure pain and suffering in the world to the point that they would have to call upon Him for help.  Everyone would be able to live completely ok on their own, without thinking much about God, and deprive Him of the honor He rightly deserves.

            If He truly created and has nurtured the universe and all things, He truly deserves our worship, and if He had taken away our free will, that level of worship would not exist as it does today.  There is nothing like a battered and beaten soul turning over a new leaf in life and gushing with love for God and His ways.  That's true worship, and if God is the creator and caretaker of all things, that is the type of worship He deserves.

            If God stopped people from rebelling against Him, no one would have the opportunity to make mistakes and decide to turn their life around.  They would not be able to express their true love for God by making such a decision.  "Joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons which need no repentance" (Luke 15:7)  That means God is more pleased with the fruits of someone who overcomes sin more than someone who seems to be a saint.

            There is great energy, something truly powerful that takes place, when a sinner is converted--more energy than arises from someone who hardly sins and is "still".  Think of it as when cold air sinks and warm air rises in the atmosphere, producing powerful winds.  That represents a sinner that has been converted--breaking from the icy grips of their earthly sins and entering the warm embrace of Heaven.  Wind is a much more powerful reaction than when cold air settles on cold air, or hot air on hot air.  That extreme change in weather--that extreme change in a person’s character--is the powerful feeling God seeks from us, because He deserves it.

            In the case of the tsunami, yes, God knew it would happen and could have stopped it.  But you must also realize the outcome of the event--the wave of support from countries all across the world, the love.  Most importantly, it has caused many people living in that region to again realize that many things in the world are beyond man’s control, and man will never be able to live to perfection on its own, no matter what we do.  We are constantly seeking to achieve perfection, through science, politics, education, etc., but deep down, everyone knows we will never be perfect, so there’s always an empty feeling of hopelessness inside us.  It is during times like these, our darkest hours, that our spirits are most fragile, and we start searching for something in life that might make it all seem ok, and it is during these dark hours that many are led to God.  The tsunami is an example of one of these dark hours that have brought people to God.

            In truth, mankind will never know the definite answers as to why God does what He does, not until we see Him on the other side.  It may partly be about Him wanting people to worship Him, as He is a "jealous" God, as the Bible states.  He doesn't want us to worship anyone or anything else.  And if He truly created and has nurtured the universe and all things, then this desire of His is the least we can give Him so that we are worthy of the time He has spent creating our world, creating us, and creating the things we enjoy.

            Ok, well, I've rambled on enough for now.  Let me give you a little bit of an answer to your question about how science proves that God exists.  Here’s an excerpt from a book on religion and science:

“If there was no Creator, then life must have started spontaneously by chance.  For life to have come about, somehow the right chemicals would have had to come together in the right quantities, under the right temperature and pressure and other controlling factors, and all would have had to be maintained for the correct length of time. Furthermore, for life to have begun and been sustained on Earth, these chance events would have had to be repeated thousands of times. But how likely is it for even one such event to take place?

 

Evolutionists admit that the probability of the right atoms and molecules falling into place to form just one simple protein molecule is 1 in 10 113, or 1 followed by 113 zeros. That number is larger than the estimated total number of atoms in the universe! Mathematicians dismiss as never taking place anything that has a probability of occurring of less than 1 in 10 50. But far more than one simple protein molecule is needed for life. Some 2,000 different proteins are needed just for a cell to maintain its activity, and the chance that all of them will occur at random is 1 in 10 40,000!

 

            “If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated [spontaneously] on the Earth, this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court,” says astronomer Fred Hoyle.”

 

            This is just one example.  I can give you many more.  I actually have a dynamite book on science and religion that I feel would ultimately make an impact on you.  The book is called Is There A Creator Who Cares About You?.

 

 

 

6

 

From:  Jorge
To:  Eternal Paradise
Date:  Monday, February 14, 2005 11:16 PM

 

Let me tackle the topic of free will.  It is a topic
that almost no one understands.  The concept of free
will means that man, or any being, can change their
thoughts and act as they will.  Let's take the concept
of Adam and Eve.

Adam and Eve, conceivably, could have chosen to sin or
not to sin.  They could have chosen to stay on God's
side, ignore the serpent and such, if they had free
will.  However, this was clearly not the case.  God
put them there, KNOWING what they would do.  He could
have put another duo or whatever (see the previous
email).  They never had a choice, in reality, as it
was God's will that they eat the fruit.   In other
words, while they believe they had free choice, their
actions were already pre-determined by God's own
actions.  They never had a chance, for it was God's
knowledge, therefore fact, that they would eat the
fruit.

Let me give you another scenario.  Let's say, for the
sake of argument, God visits you today, and gives you
a free question which he will answer TRUTHFULLY.  The
question you ask is "When will I die."  God tells you
"Tomorrow morning, you will leave the house at 8 a.m.
You will cross the street at 8:01:22 seconds.  You
will be hit by a bus and die a painful, slow death."
Your response would be, "Hmm, well I will not go
outside at 8 am. I won't even cross the street."
However, you would have no choice.  You will leave
your house at 8 a.m.  You will be hit by a bus, and
you will die a painful and slow death.
Why?  Because God is never wrong.  He cannot be wrong,
in fact, for then he would not be God, correct?
Therefore, where is your free will?

The only difference between that scenario and reality,
is that God keeps his secrets (for the most part).
However, he does KNOW when you will die.  He knows
every single thought in your mind, billions of years
ago.  He doesn't guess.  For God, the world, all of
existence, is one long video he has scene millions of
times. It is only just being played out.  There is no
chance for change.  There is no chance for
alterations.

However, the scenario of "knowing your death" actually
does exist for one person....for God himself...

Let's take this a step further, and discuss the
impossibility of God.  That is, two of his main
aspects:  Omnipotence and Omniscience.  Omnipotence
being that he can do anything.  Omniscience being that
he knows everything.  These are fundamentally
opposite.

Take God back in the day (whatever day. hehehe).  He
comes to the point of creating the Earth.  He knows he
will create the Earth on his 1 billionth birthday at 2
p.m. (heh).  Yet, what if he decides NOT to create the
Earth at that time?  What if he decides to wait till
tomorrow?  Or, perhaps, he will not create the Earth
at all?  This is the issue, as he cannot change his
mind, because he KNOWS what he will do.  His knowledge
must be correct, for he is All Knowing. 
Knowledge is not something that can alter.  Beliefs
can alter, but knowledge is infinite. it is, by
definition perfect (many humans claim to have
knowledge, but they are all wrong.  we only have
beliefs and no knowledge...another topic).

Therefore, God cannot be Omnipotent.  His Free Will
does not exist, as he cannot change his mind.  He does
not have the power to change the Earth.  He cannot add
one extra grain of sand.  He does not have the ability
to NOT create the Earth.  In truth, God cannot make
any decisions, cannot even change his mind.  He is
watching his own movie, and cannot edit or alter any
part.  He has no Free Will, and is nothing more than a
robot, following orders.  Therefore, God is Impotent.

 

7

 

From:  Ashuriena
To:  Jorge
Date:  Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:12 AM

 

As a Greek Orthodox Christian Assyrian, I understand and respect Mr.
Jorge's comments, but I have to disagree to them in regards to Satan's
connections with God.  Yes, God created Lucifer, who betrayed him and
became Satan; however, God placed Satan in the picture for a very
imperative reason (which can be deduced based on what humans are
erudite of--reasoning is needed for everything, even though we may not
clearly know what that reasoning may be).  One theory may be derived by
the understanding of change in human idiosyncrasy.  One must ask, do
people not change?  People have the tendency to change as seen mostly
through insignificant ways of life.  Therefore, God's reasoning could
have derived from the fact that he wants to see how people will turn
away from the temptation laid upon by evil.  Although he knows the
answer to all of this, he may be in search of a deeply-rooted moral of
good triumphing over evil in order to depict goodwill in mankind to
all.  However, I must say that as merely a restricted human on Earth,
we truly do not know God's intentions and thus, cannot just create a
blanket statement of hatred towards the Creator.

In addition, I would like to address the comments regarding the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict listed as an example of conflict caused
by religion.  This, in fact, is not correct.  The Israeli-Palestinian
conflict is often mistaken as a conflict created by religion, when it
is not religion that has caused the two nations to clash throughout
the decades.  The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is based upon the fact
that Palestinians took over what is said to be Israel years ago and
after a UN resolution in 1947, that geographic location was given to
Israel.  Palestinians argue that their land was taken unjustly and are
fighting over what they deem is their land, while Israelis are arguing
that Israel is not in fact composed of Palestine, but 3/4 of
Palestinian land lies in Jordan.  This difference in views has caused
the two nations to clash.

Instead of that reasoning, Mr. Jorge could have provided evidence to
his annotations through the Islamic Crusades and the Christian
Crusades that followed.

 

 

8

 

From:  Jorge
To:  Ashuriena
Date:  Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:14 PM

 

Thanks for your response Ashuriena.  I'm not sure,
however, that you understand my comments, nor the
ramifications of your own.

Quote: "God placed Satan in the picture for a very
imperative reason."
Therefore, God knew exactly what he was doing, as I
have argued above.  This was no accident.  The
creation of the greatest evil was on purpose, part of
his plan.  Conclusion is the same as my original post:
Either a)  Satan is actually an agent of God, doing
God's will.  Therefore all of Satan's acts are
actually good.  We should, by this reasoning, applaud
any act of evil, and praise Satan, or b)  God is
responsible for all evil, making him unworthy of
worship, and should thereby be loathed and despised.
I will leave you to decide to praise Satan or to
despise God.

Quote: "I must say that as merely a restricted human
on Earth, we truly do not know God's intentions."
Very true.  We cannot know his intentions.  We cannot
know if he is actually evil, if he is good, if he is a
liar.  In fact, the only person who can vouch for God
is God.  And, since we don't know his intentions,
perhaps his intentions are for evil?  Perhaps he is
purposefully misleading us all?  Since you don't know
his intentions, how can you worship him?  If someone
were to come up to you, and tell you they were perfect
and good, would you believe them?  Of course not.  So
why should you believe someone whose intentions you
cannot know...

I agree with you in general about the
Israel/Palestinian conflict.  This is not as simple as
a religious conflict.  However, there is a deeply
rooted hatred for Jews by many in the Middle East, as
you know.  Would there have been this much strife if a
Muslim state would have formed?  I think we both know
this is not the case.
I also agree with you, that there are many cases more
severe in history, including the Crusades and the
Inquisition. In fact, the list of religious
persecution, violence, and murder in the name of the
Bible and God is very long, isn't it?

 

9

 

From:  Eternal Paradise
To:  Jorge
Date:  Tuesday, February 22, 2005 9:07 PM 

 

Jorge, you say you are an atheist.  Many people do not
understand what it means to be an atheist, and the comments
you have made may confuse them.  Some may ask, isn't the
definition of an atheist "one that does not believe in God"?
From the comments you make on whether God is worthy of worship
or not, it appears that you do believe He exists.  So does
that really make you an atheist, or merely someone that
rejects God?  Is there a difference?  There are different
types of atheism, so perhaps you can elaborate on what type of
atheist you are so everyone can better understand your
viewpoints.

If you do believe God exists, you should acknowledge that He
is the creator of the universe and all things.  Is that not
enough to warrant His worship?  I understand you believe He is
the source of all evil, so think He is not worthy.  But again,
we are only human, and we are not meant to understand all of
His actions.

You said you were a religious studies and philosophy major in
college.  Please tell us why you chose that area of study,
being an atheist, and what it was like.  Also, please tell us
how that experience affected you and why--with all of the
knowledge you obtained--you still feel God is not worthy of
worship.

 

10

 

From:  Jorge
To:  Eternal Paradise
Date:  Wednesday, February 23, 2005 1:54 PM

 

Yes, I am an atheist.  I do not believe in the
existence of God, or any other "higher being" in any
way.  However, I choose to confront theism from within their
own set of beliefs, as opposed to hammering away from
the outside.  In other words, let's accept the
theistic premises, and discuss them individually, even
though I do not believe in them whatsoever.

As far as my studies, I'm a believer in the concept of
"know thy enemy" (or is it thine?), and to try to keep
an open mind.  Also, the concept of religion is
fascinating as well.  It's a study of the fear inside
each of us...and the curiosity that the unknown
presents.  Truly, if God did not exist, we would
surely invent him.  Thus the creation of hundreds of
different religions, all contradictory, in trying to
explain what  is "out there."

Quote:
"He is the Creator of the universe and all things.  Is
that not enough to warrant His worship?  I understand
you believe He is the source of all evil, so think He
is not worthy.  But again, we are only human, and we
are not meant to understand all of His actions."
Wow.  What a dangerous statement.  Does this mean that
if God were totally evil, you would still worship him?
You would accept evil as your guiding light, and that
he would be the one teaching you morality?  Is it just
power that we should worship, in hopes that he might
'reward' us for our slavery?

Is that all that we are,
cowards who are afraid of punishment, begging an
immoral being to spare us?
I suppose that everyone should answer that
differently.  For myself, the answer is clear:  for
one to be worthy of worship, he must prove himself
morally superior, morally perfect, and must do what he
can to eliminate pain and strife in the world.
Clearly, "God" falls short on all of these accounts.
There is this common concept in Christianity that
forgiveness needs to be asked for...that there are
many sins that need to be atoned for.  The Christians
are correct in this matter.  If God truly does exist,
he needs to come to Earth and beg humanity for
forgiveness for all the evil in the world, and for all
the pain he has inflicted upon us.  He is the cause
for all anguish, and for humanity's own
weakness...therefore it is he who should atone for
his sins.

If we are to worship blindly without question, then we
are to turn our back on what separates us from other
animals; the ability to question...the ability to
reason.  If you accept any religion without prodding
and asking these same questions I pose, and many more,
then you are ignoring your humanity.  It makes you
less than a human.  It is always better to die on your
feet, than to live on your knees.

 

11

 

From:  Eternal Paradise
To:  Jorge
Date:  Wednesday, March 16, 2005 11:50 AM

 

     Should we fear God?  I will let you read the answer provided at
http://www.raptuready.com/r/faq/faq413.html.ra.php:

   The answer is both "yes" and "no." And I believe that the "yes"
   answer goes for Christians, just as the "no" answer goes also for the
   person who is not God's child through belief in and acceptance of His
   Son, Jesus Christ, for salvation. Here's what I mean:

   God is a perfect Father. He corrects His own, and that can sometimes be
   painful-although never deadly, in the eternal sense. The Scripture
   says:

   "For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom
   he receiveth" (Heb. 12:6).

   In that sense, the child of God should give fearful respect to his
   Father and obey the Father's Word. This Scripture, of course, means
   sons and daughters alike. We need not fear if we obey His will. He
   wants to give us only the best things, and, He knows what is best for
   His children.

   For the lost-that is, those people who are not God's children-there is
   great reason to fear. They must stand before God at the Great White
   Throne Judgment, if they fail to come into His family before they die.
   God can accept no sin whatever into Heaven for eternity with Him.
   That's why God sent His only begotten Son as a perfect sacrifice at
   Calvary-to cover all sin of those who will but accept that sacrifice,
   and repent.

   On the other hand, the lost need not fear coming before the Throne to
   ask forgiveness of their sin through the shed blood of Jesus. God's
   arms are open wide. He wants more than anything to accept sinners,
   forgive them, and take them into His family forever. This is His great,
   unfathomable love for all of His creation called man.

   "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count
   slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should
   perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).

   Should we fear God? The Bible says specifically, in answer to that
   question: "The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: a good
   understanding have all they that do [his commandments]: his praise
   endureth for ever" (Ps.111:10).

     Now onto the main topic, the argument that will hopefully end all
arguments concerning God.

     What is your view on Bible prophecy?  Prophecy is one of the greatest
ways we can prove the Bible was written by men, but inspired by God.
Any student of prophecy should realize the majority of Bible
prophecies have already been fulfilled.  This generation is fortunate
to be living in an era where these prophecies are being fulfilled at
a rapid pace, all which is evident in the news.

    I was surfing the net for a site that puts many of the signs of the
End Times into perspective.  I found one that covers many of them,
http://www.victorious.net/prophecy/index.shtml.  To save you time,
here are the signs it mentions.  You may go directly to the site if
you wish to see some of the news headlines that validate them:

SIGNS IN NATURE

(Matthew 24:7; Mark 13: 8 & Luke 21:11)

-     Famine

-     Earthquakes

-     Plagues

-     Signs in the Heavens and Earth (unusual weather, new discoveries in
space, UFO's, etc.)

SIGNS OF SOCIETY

(Matthew 24:12,37-39 & 2 Timothy 3:1-4)

-     Lawlessness

-     Violence

-     Immorality

-     Greed

-     Selfishness

-     Hedonism

-     Rebellion

-     Despair

NEGATIVE SPIRITUAL SIGNS

-     False Christs & Prophets and their cultic groups.
(Matthew 24:2-5,11; Mark 13:6,21-22; and Luke 21:8)

-     Apostasy in the professing church.
(2 Thessalonians 2:3; and 2 Timothy 3:5, 4:3-4)

-     Widespread heresy in the church.
(2 Timothy 4:1-4)

-     Movement toward a one world religion.
(Revelation 17)

-     Persecution of true believers.
(Matthew 24:9-10; Mark 13:9,11-13; and Luke 21:12-19)

-     Outbreak of demonic and occultic activity.
(1 Timothy 4:1)

POSITIVE SPIRITUAL SIGNS

-     Outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
(Joel 2:28-29)

-     Revival of Davidic worship.
(1 Chronicles 16:1-39; Psalm 150; and Amos 9:11)

-     Worldwide evangelism.
(Matthew 24:14 and Mark 13:10)

-     Understanding of Bible prophecy.
(Daniel 12:4,8-9)

WORLD POLITICAL SIGNS

-     Re-establishment of Israel.
(Ezekiel 36:22 - 37:14; Zechariah 12:1-6; Matthew 24:32-34; Mark 13:28-30; and Luke 21:29-31)

-     Arab hostility toward Israel.
(Ezekiel 35:1 - 36:7)

-     Russia as a menacing power to Israel.
(Ezekiel 38:1 - 39:16)

-     Asian nations capable of fielding an army of 200 million.
(Revelation 9:15-16 and 16:12)

-     Wars and rumors of wars.
(Matthew 24:6-7; Mark 13:7-8; and Luke 21:10)

-     Kingdom against kingdom (civil and ethnic wars).
(Matthew 24:7; Mark 13:8; and Luke 21:10)

-     Reunification of Europe.
(Daniel 2:41-44, 7:8, 24-25, and 9:26)

-     Movement toward a one world government & one world economy.
(Revelation 18)

TECHNOLOGICAL SIGNS

-     Nuclear weapons.
(Matthew 24:22; Luke 21: 25-26; and Revelation 6:8, 8:7 and 16: 2)

-     Television and satellite transmission.
(Revelation 11:3-12)

-     Robotics.
(Revelation 13:14-15)

-     Computer and laser technology (mark of the beast).
(Revelation 13:16-18)

-     High speed transportation.
(Daniel 12:4)

THE ACCELERATOR SIGNS

-     Population explosion.
(Revelation 9:15-16 and 16:12)

-     Increase in knowledge.
(Daniel 12:4)

-     Increase in violence.
(Matthew 24:12)

-     Increase in transportation.
(Daniel 12:4)

-     Rapid disintegration of society.
(2 Timothy 3:1-4)

-     Signs in general to be like birth pangs - increasing in frequency and intensity.
(Matthew 24:8)

SIGNS OF ISRAEL

-     Regathering of the people.
(Isaiah 11:10-12 and Ezekiel 37:1-12)

-     Re-establishment of the state.
(Isaiah 66:7-8; Zechariah 12:1-6; and Matthew 24:32-35)

-     Reclamation of the land.
(Isaiah 35:1-2,7 and Ezekiel 36:34-35)

-     Revival of the language.
(Zephaniah 3:9)

-     Resurgence of the military.
(Zechariah 12:6)

-     Refocusing of world politics, world gathers forces against Israel.
(Zechariah 12:2-3)

-     Reoccupation of Jerusalem.
(Zechariah 12:2-6)

     "And when these things begin to come to pass [or begin to occur
simultaneously] then look up, and lift up your heads; for your
redemption draweth nigh."  (Luke 21:28)

     It is also shown that if you scoff the return of the Lord Jesus
Christ and the End Times, you yourself are fulfilling Bible prophecy:

     "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers,
walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of
his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as
they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly
are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and
the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the
world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the
heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in
store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition
of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that
one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as
one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men
count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that
any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the
day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the
heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall
melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein
shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be
dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy
conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming
of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be
dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"  (Peter II
3:3-12)

     It is also important to point out that most if not all of the
prominent Christian scholars--Billy Graham, John Hagee, T.D. Jakes,
Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Perry Stone, Jack Van Impe, etc. SAY WE ARE
LIVING IN THE END TIMES.  Are all of those highly intelligent,
respectable men wrong?

     Can you deny all of the signs of the End Times you have just read
about?  Are all of these things not taking place in our present day?
You can not say there is any other time in history when ALL of these
signs have occurred SIMULTANEOUSLY.  With so many Biblical prophecies
being fulfilled, proving the validity of the Bible and God's
existence, where do you now stand as an atheist?

 

12

 

From:  Jorge
To:  Eternal Paradise
Date:  Thursday, March 17, 2005 3:25 PM

 

Okay, let’s go over this massive post, with a
breakdown of each topic:

SIGNS OF THE APOCALYPSE

LAWLESSNESS:  Has there ever been a time without
lawlessness?  Please point that out to me.

VIOLENCE:  Has there ever been a time without violence?

IMMORALITY:  See above.

In fact, point to a time where any of the following did not exist:
greed, selfishness, hedonism, rebellion, despair.
If you need examples of greed, selfishness, hedonism,
rebellion, despair, lawlessness, violence and
immorality, you only have to look at the church and
its actions throughout the last 2 millennia.  Those
traits hardly represent a “new trend”.

Ok, to more prophecy:

SIGNS IN NATURE

Matthew 24:7:  “For nation shall rise against nation,
and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be
famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers
places.“

FAMINE:  Are you saying that famine is at its peak
now?  Famine has been in existence much longer than
the history of man.  There was abject poverty and
starvation even in the time of Jesus.  (Of course, he
sort of ignored that problem, didn’t he?  Another of
his (ahem) oversights).  We have the potato famine in
Ireland in 1845 (which also lead to diseases, another
sign of the apocalypse, Phyopthora infestans.)
Thousands were dying of starvation and the disease.
Many thought these were signs of the apocalypse.  I
believe if you were there, or among the other hundreds
of differing famines, that perhaps you would feel doom
would be coming.  I guess God wasn’t paying attention,
because here we are...
Also, look up the Black Famine in the Ukraine in
1932...where 7 million Ukrainians perished from
starvation.  Again, we are still here.  I can list
older times of famine, if you wish.

EARTHQUAKES:  Earthquakes are a  common phenomenon
throughout history.  The earliest description of an
earthquake comes from China...in 1177 B.C, or 3
THOUSAND YEARS AGO.
European Earthquakes are mentioned as early as 580 BC.
I guess the apocalypse as been building for 3,000
years now.  Man, God works REALLY SLOWLY.  Someone
wake him up!

PLAGUE:  Perhaps the greatest plague of all, The Black
Plague, has spread throughout history: Epidemics in
540 AD in Egypt and then to Constantinople in 542, in
the Volg River in 1345, back to Constantinople in
1347. On and on.  It hit Austria in 1711.  Most
notably, it ran from 1855-1896, where it killed 12
MILLION PEOPLE in China and India alone.  Manchuria
lost 60 thousand in 1911, and it has been seen in
India as recently as 1994.  Several of these had
people claiming “the end of the world.” 

SIGNS FROM HEAVEN:  You must be referring to the vague
Luke 21:11:  "And great earthquakes shall be in divers
places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful
sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.”
Do you mean signs from heaven to be UFO’s?  So God is
sending the aliens down?  Is that what you are
referring to as “unusual weather, new discoveries in
space, UFO's etc."  Sorry, that is more than a bit of
a stretch.  This is such a blanket statement, as vague
as can be. Wouldn’t a solar/lunar eclipse qualify as a
“great sign from heaven?”  What about Aurora Borealis?
Meteor Showers would definitely fall into this
category. Many referred to lightning as the wrath of
God.  Again, these events have taken place for
thousands of years.  Each time, the Christians refer
to them as “signs of the apocalypse.”  I’m still waiting.

Quote:  “Can you deny all of the signs of the End Times
you have just read about?  Are all of these things not
taking place in our present day?  You can not say there
is any other time in history when ALL of these
signs have occurred SIMULTANEOUSLY.”  I think the
bigger question is name a time when they were NOT
happening  simultaneously.  Early 1900’s:  Famine
(Ukraine), Plague (Manchuria), Earthquake (San Fran)
and Signs (constant);
1800’s:  Famine (Ireland), Plague (China and Ireland),
Earthquake (Madrid, Missouri), phenomenon
(Constant)...do I need to go on?

However, as you are convinced of this, when is this
apocalypse supposed to take place?  Should I cancel my
IRA?  I need to know!  If we are still here in 50
years, will you say “oops, I guess I was wrong?”  “Oh,
I guess the Bible was WAY off”  My guess is that
something will happen:  earthquake in Cali, war in
Asia, Famine in Europe, and so on that will keep these
“prophecies” going on perpetually. These “signs” have
always been here, will always be here, and will keep
popping up. The absurd will last in perpetuity.

While we are on the Biblical quote kick, let’s see how
that Biblical morality falls, shouldn’t we?
Some more interesting Bible funness that Christians
like to ignore:

I think you should listen to God himself, who says
that you should only accept him after he proves it:
Ezekiel 37:  “12 ...Behold, O my people, I will open
your graves, and cause you to come up out of your
graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And
ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened
your graves.”

Last time I checked, there weren’t any zombies
cruising around Israel. I guess since he hasn’t done
that, we don’t know he is the lord, right?  These are
his words, not mine.  God is TELLING you to be an
atheist!

Okay, Seriously, here are some morals that all should
follow!:

•     Quote:  “God is a perfect Father. He corrects His
own, and that can sometimes be painful–although never
deadly."  Never deadly, eh?  Are you sure you are
reading the same Bible?

Leviticus 20:  “Whosoever he be of the children of
Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel,
that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall
surely be put to death: the people of the land shall
stone him with stones.”

•     Sounds deadly to me.  More:

Leviticus 20:9:  “For every one that curseth his father
or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath
cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be
upon him.”

•     Let’s start lining up the people...

Leviticus 20:10:  “And the man that committeth adultery
with another man's wife, even he that committeth
adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and
the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”

•     Its nice to know that all Christians are pro gay
basher: Yikes, stop the Gay Rights Parade.

Leviticus 20:13:  “If a man also lie with mankind, as
he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an
abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their
blood shall be upon them.”

•     Dang, careful when you open that bathroom door:

Leviticus 20:17:  "And if a man shall take his sister,
his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and
see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a
wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight
of their people"

•     Honey, you’re SURE it’s not that time of the month
again?

Leviticus 20:18: "And if a man shall lie with a woman
having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness;
he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath
uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them
shall be cut off from among their people."

•     Also, we KNOW the Bible is wrong in this scenario.
Does that mean God is a bluffer?  There are plenty of
children born in this scenario.  God must be impotent,
right?

Leviticus 20:20  “And if a man shall lie with his
uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness:
they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.”

•     Just like many of the quotes provided by your friendly
Bible, the fountain of immorality.

The Economist has published an article about
apocalyptic prophecies through time.  You can read it
here:
http://www.economist.com/diversions/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3490697

Here are some tidbits:

"Christians have kept faith with the idea that the
world is just about to end since the beginnings of
their religion. Jesus Himself hinted more than once
that His second coming would happen during the
lifetime of His followers."

"In 156AD, a fellow called Montanus, pronouncing
himself to be the incarnation of the Holy Spirit,
declared that the New Jerusalem was about to come
crashing down from the heavens and land in
Phrygia—which, conveniently, was where he lived.
Before long, Asia Minor, Rome, Africa and Gaul were
jammed with wandering ecstatics, bitterly repenting
their sins and fasting and whipping themselves in
hungry anticipation of the world's end."

"A bit more than a thousand years later, the
authorities in Germany were stamping out an outbreak
of apocalyptic mayhem among a self-abusing sect called
the secret flagellants of Thuringia."

"The disciples of William Miller, a 19th-century
evangelical American, clung ecstatically to the same
belief as the Montanists and the Thuringians. A thick
strand of Christian history connects them all, and
countless other movements."

Finally, all will end well, true believers...

"New apocalyptic creeds have even sprung from those
sticky moments when the world has failed to end on
schedule. (Social scientists call this
“disconfirmation”.) When the resurrected Christ failed
to show up for Miller's disciples on the night of
October 22nd 1844, press scribblers mocked the “Great
Disappointment” mercilessly..."

...don't worry, this has a happy ending...!

"...even as they jeered, a farmer called Hiram Edson
snuck away from the vigil to pray in a barn, where he
duly received word of what had happened. There had
been a great event after all—but in heaven, not on
Earth. This happening was that Jesus had begun an
“investigative judgment of the dead."

See?  Nothing to worry about!  So when the world is
still around 50 years or a hundred years from now,
your grandchildren will still be able to make a new
reason for "The End of Time."

 

13

 

From:  Eternal Paradise
To:  Jorge
Date:  Thursday, March 17, 2005 11:41 AM

 

     Jorge,

 

     Thanks for the detailed response.  However, you sidestepped some of the issues I mentioned and twisted some of the others--intentionally or unintentionally--to substantiate your viewpoint.

 

     You said that ALL of the signs of the End Times I listed have ALWAYS been in place.  However, you only pointed out that the SIGNS IN NATURE and SIGNS OF SOCIETY have been in place for that long, which may be true.  But you did not address the NEGATIVE SPIRITUAL SIGNS, POSITIVE SPIRITUAL SIGNS, WORLD POLITICAL SIGNS, TECHONOLOGICAL SIGNS, or the SIGNS OF ISRAEL. 

 

     Let me point out a few of them to show you that all of these signs have not always been in place, so your belief is false.  TECHNOLOGICAL SIGNS:  How long have nuclear weapons (Matthew 24:22; Luke 21: 25-26; and Revelation 6:8, 8:7 and 16: 2), television and satellite transmission (Revelation 11:3-12), robotics (Revelation 13:14-15), computer and laser technology (Revelation 13:16-18), and high speed transportation (Daniel 12:4) been around?  Thousands of years...or as early as the 20th century?  SIGNS OF ISRAEL:  Re-establishment of the state  (Isaiah 66:7-8; Zechariah 12:1-6; and Matthew 24:32-35).  This prophecy was seemingly fulfilled in 1948.  There is no other time in history when this took place.  WORLD POLITCAL SIGNS:  Reunification of Europe  (Daniel 2:41-44, 7:8, 24-25, and 9:26).  The European Union was officially born in 1992.  Aspects of it existed in the 1950s, but we are still looking at the same 20th century time bracket. 

 

     I could certainly continue, but I would like to hear how you think these particular signs have been in place for thousands of years.  The signs you pointed out--SIGNS IN NATURE and SIGNS IN SOCIETY--may have been in place for that long, but the reason we know they are signs of the End Times now is because they are occurring alongside all of the other categories of signs that are mentioned.  EVERY CATEGORY of signs has been in effect in our generation, in the 20th and 21st centuries.  They have not been as such in any other time period, and "...when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled"  (Luke 21:31-33).

 

     Now let us discuss one of your quotes: 

    

     Ezekiel 37:  “12 ... Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves.”

    

     God is not saying that you should only accept Him after He proves the majestic power He is capable of.  That would destroy the whole concept of faith that He promotes throughout the entire Bible, and He would not make that mistake.  In this quote, He is almost saying you are a fool if you DO NOT believe in Him when He performs miracles like this, because He has predicted them.  This quote does not give anyone a warrant to be an atheist--to only become a believer when they see a miracle take place.  But I know how stalwart you are in your beliefs, and I am 100% positive you will soon see the miracles that God has prophesied for the End Times, and you will become a believer. 

 

     As I have said before, most if not all of the major scholars on Christianity--Billy Graham, John Hagee, T.D. Jakes, Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Perry Stone, Jack Van Impe, etc--agree we are living in the End Times--a period when some of the greatest miracles in the history of the world will take place--though even without their validation, I would believe it is true.  And since you are rather knowledgeable on the faith, you should know there is an event referred to as the Rapture, when all of God's true followers will be taken to Heaven so the Tribulation Period--the seven years of testing and judgment of the Christ-rejecting populace--can begin.  If you are waiting to see a miracle before you believe in God, you are about to get your wish. 

 

     When millions of people suddenly vanish from Earth, I am 100% positive you will become a believer along with many others, if not earlier.  Many unbelievers that are left behind during the Rapture will believe that aliens are responsible (but people should visit sites like http://www.mt.net/~watcher/ and rid themselves of the notion of aliens), but since you know what the Bible predicts, you will know otherwise, and I believe you will become a minister to those around you.  Once you see the Antichrist sign a false covenant of peace with Israel and the surrounding nations for seven years, and you witness the judgments (asteroids, contamination of water by blood, darkness from the sun turning black and the moon becoming blood red, death, disease, drought, earthquakes, famine, fire, flooding, genocide, ecological disasters, heat waves, hurricanes, nuclear war, tornados, volcanic eruptions, etc.) all occurring SIMULTANEOUSLY, you will become stalwart in your new Christian faith.

 

     I am confident many unbelievers will find their way to God, but my greatest concern is for the current unbelievers, because they can avoid the hellish Tribulation Period if they simply open their hearts to God NOW.  They can be a part of the Rapture and escape the Earth if they place their faith in God NOW.  The Rapture could take place at any moment, but there is no doubt that is VERY near, which all of the Christian scholars I mentioned above will tell you.  We will not know the day or hour of that event, but we do know God's signs of the End Times--the signs of TODAY--are indicating the Rapture, Tribulation Period, and the end of the eternal struggle between good and evil is near, and they will most likely take place within our lifetime, perhaps beginning in 2005.

 

     On a side note, I want to discuss one more quote I mentioned that you have twisted, intentionally or unintentionally.  The quote, from RaptureReady.com, says "God is a perfect Father. He corrects His own, and that can sometimes be painful–although never deadly, IN THE ETERNAL SENSE."  I see you omitted the words "in the eternal sense" in your response, and they make all the difference.  You provided many quotes in which God has allowed for death, which is His own prerogative, as He is the creator and master of all things, and His wisdom and ways should not be questioned, because our earthly minds are too limited to understand.  But the fact is, He is not deadly...in the eternal sense.  He has provided the way for us to have eternal life through His Son Jesus Christ:  “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life”  (John 3:16).  (And as a counter-argument, please do not say that God is "deadly" because He required Jesus to die to redeem mankind of its sins, because you would only be missing the point.)  God is not deadly, in the eternal sense, because everyone that lives in accordance with His will will never truly die.  True death--eternal death--is Hell, but eternal life is Heaven.  I hope you choose eternal life before it is too late. 

 

     And as far as I am concerned, The Economist is a worldly magazine influenced by worldly forces and has no true insight into the heavenly things of God.  It has no weight in this debate.

 

 

 

14

 

From:  Jorge
To:  Eternal Paradise
Date:  Friday, March 18, 2005 11:52 AM

 

Very true.  I did not go through all the quotes, because
frankly, there were too many.  I will go through them,
if that helps. 

What you ignored were all the ridiculous calls for
murder by the Bible.  Do you believe that gay people
should be killed?  Do you believe that a man that
commits adultery should be killed? 

Also, what if the rapture does not take place in say,
the next 30 years?  What will you do?  Make excuses
and wait for another one?  Say that you
"misunderstood"?  Also, what about the multitudinous
other "End of Times" predictions?  Let me guess, they
were wrong, but we are right THIS time for sure.  I
wait for your answer...

There are some things that you do not understand about
some atheists, like myself.  If I were given a choice
to serve an immoral God or to go to Hell, I would take
Hell.  Perhaps I would be afraid, but I would rather
die on my feet.  You cower in front of an immoral
being, hoping that he will be nice to you.  You don't
care if he is evil, which he clearly is.  You simply
don't want the punishment.  Anyone who feels that way
is, in my opinion, less than human.  Again, if God
were to appear right in front of me now, I would ask
him to get on his knees and beg humanity for
forgiveness, not the other way around.

I will tackle the quotes shortly...

 

15

 

From:  Jorge
To:  Eternal Paradise
Date:  Friday, March 18, 2005 1:59 PM

 

Are you sure you are reading these quotes correctly?

NUCLEAR WEAPONS

•     Matthew 24:22:  “And except those days should be
shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the
elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

-     That says nuclear weapons to you?  Someone fetch my
reading glasses.

•     Luke 21:25-26:  "25 And there shall be signs in the
sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the
earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea
and the waves roaring;  26 Men's hearts failing them
for fear, and for looking after those things which are
coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be
shaken.”

-     Again, Nuclear Weapons?  The signs in the Sun?  The
Sea and Waves Roaring?  Sorry, this is desperate
reaching.  This could indicate Solar Eclipses, Tidal
Waves (Please, don’t mention the Tsunami as a “current
event”...those have been happening for millennia.)

•     Revelation 6:8:  “And I looked, and behold a pale
horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and
Hell followed with him.  And power was given unto them
over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword,
and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts
of the earth.”

-     Wow, these must be those new bombs, which create
flying swords and beasts.  Damn, those clever
scientists!

•     Revelations 8:7:  “The first angel sounded, and
there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and
they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of
trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”

This is the closest to a nuke, but still a desperate
reach.  There is not “hail” or “fire” in nuclear war,
and not mixed with blood.  Also, let’s look at the
surrounding text, and see if it sounds like nuclear
war to you:

Revelations 8:  “5 And the angel took the censer, and
filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the
earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and
lightnings, and an earthquake.  6 And the seven angels
which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to
sound.  7 The first angel sounded, and there followed
hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast
upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt
up, and all green grass was burnt up.  8 And the second
angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning
with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of
the sea became blood;  9 And the third part of the
creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died;
and the third part of the ships were destroyed.  10 And
the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star
from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell
upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the
fountains of waters”

-     Very scary!  But nothing like a nuclear war.  Not
even close.  Here is what happens during a nuclear
war:

“Those within approximately a six square mile area
(for a 1 megaton blast) will indeed be close enough to
"ground zero" to be killed by the gamma rays emitting
from the blast itself. Ghostly shadows of these people
will be formed on any concrete or stone that lies
behind them, and they will be no more. They literally
won't know what hit them, since they will be vaporized
before the electrical signals from their sense organs
can reach their brains. Of the many victims of a
nuclear war, these are the luckiest ones, of course.

Outside the circle where people will be instantly
vaporized from the initial gamma radiation blast, the
light from the explosion (which is many times hotter
than the sun) is so bright that it will immediately
and permanently blind every living thing, including
farm animals (including cows, sacred or otherwise),
pets, birds while in flight, and not to mention
peasants, Maharajah's, and Government officials -- and
soldiers, of course. Whether their eyes are opened or
closed. This will happen for perhaps 10 miles around
in every direction (for a 1 megaton bomb) -- further
for those who happen to be looking towards the blast
at the moment of detonation. Even from fifty miles
away, a 1 megaton blast will be many times brighter
than the noonday sun. Those looking directly at the
blast will have a large spot permanently burned into
their retinas, where the light receptor cells will
have been destroyed. The huge bright cloud being
nearly instantly formed in front of them (made in part
from those closer to the blast, who have already
"become death"), will be the last clear image these
people will see.

Most people who will die from the nuclear explosion
will not die in the initial gamma ray burst, nor in
the multi-spectral heat blast *Heat is not the same
as fire* (mostly X-ray and ultraviolet wavelengths)
which will come about a tenth of a second after the
gamma burst. Nor will the pressure wave which follows
over the next few seconds do most of them in, though
it will cause bleeding from every orifice. Nor even
will most people be killed by the momentary high winds
which accompany the pressure wave. These winds will
reach velocities of hundreds of miles an hour near the
epicenter of the blast, and will reach velocities of
70 miles per hour as far as 6 miles from the blast
(for a 1 megaton bomb). The high winds and flying
debris will cause shrapnel-type wounds and
blunt-trauma injuries.

•     Revelation 16:2:  “And the first went, and
poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a
noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the
mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his
image.”

-     Wow, this nuclear war is getting crazier by the
moment!  Now God is pouring his vial (?) upon the
earth!

So, are you still convinced that these mean Nuclear
weapons?  

TV AND SATELLITE TRANSMISSIONS

•     Revelation 11:  “And I will give power unto my two
witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two
hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.  4
These are the two olive trees, and the two
candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.  5
And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of
their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any
man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in
the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters
to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all
plagues, as often as they will.  7 And when they shall
have finished their testimony, the beast that
ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war
against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the
great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and
Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.  9 And they
of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations
shall see their dead bodies three days and an half,
and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in
graves.  10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall
rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send
gifts one to another; because these two prophets
tormented them that dwelt on the earth.  11 And after
three days and an half the spirit of life from God
entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and
great fear fell upon them which saw them.  12 And they
heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come
up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud;
and their enemies beheld them.”

-     Am I hallucinating, or does this have nothing to do
with TV and Satellite?  I have a pretty active
imagination, but I can’t picture this at all...

ROBOTICS

•     Revelation 13:14-15:  Actually, let’s put a more
extensive description here.  Revelation 13:  "11 And I
beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and
he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a
dragon.  12 And he exerciseth all the power of the
first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them
which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose
deadly wound was healed.  13 And he doeth great
wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven
on the earth in the sight of men,  14 And deceiveth
them that dwell on the earth by the means of those
miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the
beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that
they should make an image to the beast, which had the
wound by a sword, and did live.  15 And he had power to
give life unto the image of the beast, that the image
of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many
as would not worship the image of the beast should be
killed.  16 And he causeth all, both small and great,
rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in
their right hand, or in their foreheads”

-     Okay, so the robots are going to come out of the
ground, with two horns, and speaking like dragons.  He
has all the powers of the first beast before him
(us?), and he’s going to make fire come from heaven?
Wow, what a robot!

HIGH SPEED TRANSPORTATION

Daniel 12:4:  “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the
words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:
many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be
increased.”

-     So, running to and fro is high speed transportation?
Does that make Jesse Owens a Lamborghini?  Wouldn’t
the advent of the wheel and cart be considered ‘high
speed transportation.”  What about the railroad, which
is over 200 years old, should we ignore that?  Let’s
forget the concept of the trans-oceanic vessel, the
ship, which has been around for thousands of years.
Also “knowledge shall increase.”  Is that opposed to
the “decreasing” knowledge that was happening
throughout time? 

I have a feeling that you will somehow ignore these
blatant exaggerations and continue to believe in the
end times.  I would suggest, however, that you should
actually READ the quotes, before using them as
arguments.  

As far as your other points:  QUOTE:  “most if not all
of the major scholars on Christianity--Billy Graham,
John Hagee, T.D. Jakes, Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsey, Perry
Stone, Jack Van Impe-agree we are living in the End
Times--a period when some of the greatest miracles in
the history of the world will take place”

-     Well, you have referred to them as “intelligent,” and
they are...but not in the way you think.  The Bible
was constructed for one purpose...to keep the masses
poor and happy, and to elevate the “luminaries” of the
religion. The Billy Graham Evangelist Organization is
a multi-million dollar corporation, err, “charity.”
He, along with the others on the list, gain
FINANCIALLY by talks of the End Times.  What if he
were to say “Oh no, nothing should happen for the next
500 years.”  They ARE intelligent,
because they sucker semi-innocent people into sending
them money.  This is another topic.

Since you don’t accept the “Economist,” a highly
respected magazine, as a credible source, I’ll print
some more samples of bogus “End Times” predictions.
Perhaps if I live for 30 years, I will write about the
current bogus End Times.  Here are some tidbits, from
various sources:

How about some from the bible itself? 

•     About 30 CE:  The Christian Scriptures (New
Testament), when interpreted literally, appear to
record many predictions by Jeshua of Nazareth (Jesus
Christ) that God's Kingdom would arrive within a very
short period, or was actually in the process of
arriving. For example, Jesus is recorded as saying in
Matthew 16:28:  "...there shall be some standing here,
which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son
of Man coming in his kingdom." In Matthew 24:34,
Yeshua is recorded as saying:  "...This generation
shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
Since the life expectancy in those days was little
over 30 years, Jesus appears to have predicted his
second coming sometime during the 1st century CE. It
didn't happen.

•     About 60 CE:  Interpreting the Epistles of Paul of
Tarsus literally, his writings seem to imply that
Jesus would return and usher in a rapture during the
lifetime of persons who were living in the middle of
the 1st century.

•     About 90 CE:  Saint Clement 1 predicted that the
world end would occur at any moment.

•     2nd Century CE:  Prophets and prophetesses of the
Montanist movement predicted that Jesus would return
sometime during their lifetime and establish the New
Jerusalem in the city of Pepuza in Asia Minor.

•     Some references to spatial phenomenon:  “968 CE: An
eclipse was interpreted as a prelude to the end of the
world by the army of the German emperor Otto III.”

•     1346 and later: The black plague spread across
Europe, killing one third of the population. This was
seen as the prelude to an immediate end of the world.
Unfortunately, the Christians had previously killed
many of the cats, fearing that they might be familiars
of witches. The fewer the cats, the more the rats. It
was the rat fleas that spread the black plague.

•     “992: Good Friday coincided with the Feast of the
Annunciation; this had long been believed to be the
event that would bring forth the Antichrist, and thus
the end times events foretold in the book of
Revelation. Records from Germany report that a new sun
rose in the north and that as many as 3 suns and 3
moons were fighting.”

•     “From 1876 onward, Jehovah's people served notice
upon the world, and particularly upon Christendom,
that the Gentile Times would end in the fall of
1914....  ...All of the Lord's people looked forward to
1914 with joyful expectation. When that time came and
passed, there was much disappointment, chagrin and
mourning, and the Lord's people were greatly in
reproach. They were ridiculed by the clergy and their
allies in particular and pointed to with scorn,
because they had said so much about 1914 and what
would come to pass, and their 'prophecies' had not
been fulfilled.  [Light I, p. 194]”

•     “The very first issue of Zion's Watch Tower, July,
1879, stated on page 1 that the object of its
publication was to present, not theories, but facts:
That we are living "in the last days" -- "the days of
the Lord" -- "the end" of the Gospel age, and
consequently, in the dawn of the "new" age, are facts
not only discernible by the close student of the Word,
led by the spirit, but the outward signs recognizable
by the world bear the same testimony.

•     The book Millions Now Living Will Never Die, 1920
Edition, said on pages 89-90:

“As we have heretofore stated, the great jubilee cycle
is due to begin in 1925. At that time the earthly
phase of the kingdom shall be recognized.... Therefore
we may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the
return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the faithful
prophets of old, particularly those named by the
Apostle in Hebrews chapter eleven, to the condition of
human perfection.”

•     Here is also Carl Sagan, another unacceptable source
for you, I’m sure, speaking of the 1914 prediction and
of religion in general--By the way, if you add up the
intelligence of Billy Graham and all the others on the
list, they might make up 5% of Sagan’s:

“There are at least three responses that an organized
religion can make in the face of such a failed and
fundamental prophecy. They could have said, "Oh, did
we say '1914'? So sorry, we meant '2014.' A slight
error in calculation. Hope you weren't inconvenienced
in any way." But they did not. They could have said,
"Well, the world would have ended, except we prayed
very hard and interceded with God so He spared the
Earth." But they did not. Instead, they did something
much more ingenious. They announced that the world had
in fact ended in 1914, and if the rest of us hadn't
noticed, that was our lookout.

It is astonishing in
the face of such transparent evasions that this
religion has any adherents at all. But religions are
tough. Either they make no contentions which are
subject to disproof or they quickly redesign doctrine
after disproof. The fact that religions can be so
shamelessly dishonest, so contemptuous of the
intelligence of their adherents, and still flourish
does not speak very well for the tough-mindedness of
the believers. But it does indicate, if a
demonstration were needed, that near the core of the
religious experience is something remarkably resistant
to rational inquiry. [Carl Sagan, Broca's Brain,
Ballantine Books, New York, 1982, p. 332]”

I skipped about 50 more instances of “End Times”
predictions.  Also, I did not include all the quotes
that you listed.  Frankly, I got tired after about 10
of them...and after pointing out how ridiculous the
quotes were.  I would prefer that you actually paste
the quotes and state your argument for them.  Also,
has anyone made it this far before passing out?

 

16

 

From:  Eternal Paradise
To:  Jorge
Date:  Friday, March 18, 2005 4:27 PM

 

     I can see why you would be overly skeptical on the quotes that are provided to help validate each sign, and I am not saying all of them are 100% set-in-stone, but I can say that the ones you brought up are accurate if you do a little problem-solving.  For instance, what would happen if there were a nuclear war?  You attempted to tackle this, but I will let you read a little of what an expert says:

     Revelation 6:12-15:


     “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.”

 

     That this is a reference to the STARS is much more likely than a meteor shower, because everyone knows what the STARS LOOK LIKE. They are steady state objects in the heavens, and suddenly, they begin to MOVE. The only way the stars in the heaven can move is if the PLANET SUDDENLY BEGINS TO SHIFT, and it would look exactly like they were FALLING TO THE GROUND. A literal shifting of the planetary surface appears to be the case here.

 

     But what is the cause? What is the trigger event? Again we state that the Bible says it is a NUCLEAR STRIKE AGAINST BABYLON BY A CONFEDERATION OF NATIONS THAT ARE ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE EARTH, AND THEY COME OVER THE POLES AND FROM THE SEACOASTS. The enemy encircles Babylon and launches a MASSIVE “OVERKILL” NUCLEAR ATTACK VIA MISSILES, which in turn triggers massive earthquake and volcanic activity, which leads in a very short time to a polar shift. This is then THE TRIGGER, according to God. That other facets unstated enter in may well be the case, but the one primary event as spoken is A NUCLEAR ATTACK UPON BABYLON. It is the subject of Isaiah 13!

               

     “And Babylon, the glory of the KINGDOMS, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah” (Isaiah 13:19).

               

     The day the earth is removed out of her orbit IS THE TAKING OF BABYLON THE NATION BY A SUDDEN, SURPRISE NUCLEAR ATTACK, WHICH TOTALLY DESTROYS HER FROM COAST TO COAST....


     ...This massive NUCLEAR attack concentrates such a blast upon the surface of Earth, that it literally CAUSES THE ENTIRE PLANET TO BE MOVED FROM HER ORBIT! IT APPEARS TO CAUSE A POLAR SHIFT TO BEGIN! We might use the term OVERKILL. It makes such a tremendous noise that the entire world LITERALLY HEARS IT:

 

     “At the NOISE OF THE TAKING OF BABYLON THE EARTH IS MOVED, AND THE CRY IS HEARD AMONG THE NATIONS” (Jeremiah 50:46).

 

     The word “MOVED” means to UNDULATE, TO WAVER, TO SHAKE, TO TREMBLE, AND TO QUAKE. Again the whole earth is involved in this, and this is a UNIVERSAL ACTIVITY....


     "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved”  (Matthew 24:22).


     ...This taking of Babylon causes the earth to remove out of her orbit, and it appears she moves closer to the sun and also increases her ROTATIONAL SPEED. What once was a 24 hour day becomes ONE THIRD LESS, OR we move to a 16 hour day. Or an INCREASE IN HER ROTATIONAL SPEED BY 1/3. 
           

     “And the third angel sounded, and there fell A GREAT STAR FROM HEAVEN, BURNING as it were A LAMP, AND IT FELL UPON THE THIRD PART OF THE RIVERS, AND UPON THE FOUNTAINS OF WATERS; and the name of the star is called WORMWOOD; and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter” (Revelation 8:10-11).


     What is this so-called GREAT STAR? The name wormwood gives us the clue: RADIOACTIVE, OR NUCLEAR. The word “Chernobyl”, that Russian city that had a nuclear accident, gives us the clues we need, which can also be confirmed in other places. The word “Chernobyl” means WORMWOOD....

 

     ...We have to look at the events in Revelation, and to see their succession:

           

     The first angel sounds, and there is HAIL AND FIRE AND BLOOD. Think of these things in terms of nuclear war. The term fire, when used by itself, seems to imply NUCLEAR WEAPONS. The term “star” is used to describe it as well. We seem to be looking at NUCLEAR WAR and also the possibility of massive VOLCANIC ACTIVITY.

           

     One of the natural side effects of a massive nuclear attack such as this would be violent storms, and with this violence HAIL because of the massive amounts of water vapor lifted high in the atmosphere by the explosions. This water, thrown into the outer regions of the atmosphere, would freeze rapidly and descend upon earth as huge HAILSTONES.
    

     The blood is the blood of millions of people that die in this fiery sneak attack. The nation is utterly demolished!  Blood is water. The blood of millions of people would be lifted high into the heavens. Thus we have HAIL and FIRE MIXED WITH BLOOD. A perfect description of a nuclear attack....

  

     So there it is.  The quotes you pointed out on nuclear war can be validated.  A global nuclear war would influence our perception of celestial bodies, "shaking" the heavens (Luke 21:25-26), shorten our Earth days (Matthew 24:22) because of the polar shifts that would occur, destroy flesh (Matthew 24:22), and mingle blood with fire and hail because of the violent storms (Revelation 8:7).  One of the farthest stretches the writer provided may be Revelation 6:8, which talks about a horseman of the Apocalypse that which brings death by sword (war), hunger, death, and the beasts of the earth.  Certainly, if there is a global war in our future, it will involve nuclear weapons.  Such monumental blasts will affect the environment, causing hunger, death, and beasts of the earth to be contanimated by radiation.  I will admit the writer's reference of Revelation 16:2 is somewhat vague, but a case could probably be made for it as well.

 

     Now onto TV and Satellite Transmissions.  Do not just read what the quotes say.  Think about them.  In Revelation 11, God's two witnesses are killed.  Then it says "And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half"  (Revelation 11:8-9)

 

     How do you suppose everyone in the world will be able to see their dead bodies at one time?  Live television with satellite transmissions, possibly even the internet.  In either case, we are talking about technology that has only become present in our age, indicating this is the era of destiny.

 

     The beast coming out of the earth with two horns is actually the symbol of the coming False Prophet, which has the powers of the first beast (the Antichrist).  Those are not the robot symbols the writer is talking about.  Let us read what the Bible says the False Prophet will do:   

 

     "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven
on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed."

 

     It is the image of the beast that the writer is making the robot comparison to.  The Antichrist and False Prophet will have access to the greatest technology in the world, and some of their supernatural powers will actually be scientific powers.  They could easily create a robot in the image of the beast (the Antichrist) that speaks, then force people to worship that image as if it were God in one of the worst cases of idolatry ever known. 


     High speed transporation?  The writer's quote deals with the explosion of the Information Age of our advanced time period, and the "running to and fro" could be equated to automobiles. 

 

     So you see, I have given you viable answers that many religious scholars agree with--the same ones that I continue to refer to above.  People need to open their minds when they read the quotes and problem-solve, for God has obviously created many mysteries in the Bible.  He sometimes encodes things so that we do not unlock prophetic secrets until the appointed time, like when he says "Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man [the Antichrist]; and his number is six hundred threescore and six  (Revelation 13:18).  People could not understand such things many years ago, but we have come to understand much scripture in the 20th and 21st centuries, the End Times era.

 

     Your views of the Christian scholars I speak of are merely opinions, like much of what we have spoken of in this debate, so arguing about them will not do any good.  I know I will not be able to change your viewpoint so easily.  And yes, many people in the past have been wrong that the End Times is upon us, but again, none of them were living in a time like today, when some of the prophecies you read about and said "Very True" to (the reestablishment of the state of Israel seemingly in 1948 and the formation of the European Union in 1992) make all the difference.  Am I saying there is no possibility this generation of End Times preachers could be wrong?  Not necessarily.  But am I saying that we have more evidence of our claims than any other generation in history?  Yes.  The generation that experiences the re-establishment of the state of Israel and the formation of the European Union "shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled"  (Luke 21:32).

 

 

 

17

 

From:  Jorge
To:  Eternal Paradise
Date:  Friday, March 18, 2005 5:54 PM


•     1.  This whole section, Jeremiah 50, refers to an
attack on Babylon, not the Rapture or the End Times.
All references and similarities to Nuclear War have no
merit.

•     2.  QUOTE:  “This taking of Babylon causes the earth
to remove out of her orbit, and it appears she moves
closer to the sun and also increases her ROTATIONAL
SPEED.  What once was a 24 hour day becomes ONE THIRD
LESS, OR we move to a 16 hour day.  Or an INCREASE IN
HER ROTATIONAL SPEED BY 1/3.”

Scientists find that appalling, even from science fiction.

From UWGB:  “The idea of the Earth's orbit or rotation
being disturbed is a common catastrophe theme,
exploited in movies such as The Day the Earth Caught
Fire, not to mention the theories of Velikovsky.  In
The Day the Earth Caught Fire, nuclear explosions send
Earth spiraling toward the Sun, and only a last-ditch
counter-explosion saves the world.  The movie features
one of the best scripts of any science-fiction film,
but the story line is impossible.  Unless mass were
expelled from the Earth, or some force were applied
from outside the Earth, it would be impossible to
change the Earth's orbit or rotation.”

•     3.  QUOTE:  “And the third angel sounded, and there
fell A GREAT STAR FROM HEAVEN, BURNING as it were A
LAMP, AND IT FELL UPON THE THIRD PART OF THE RIVERS,
AND UPON THE FOUNTAINS OF WATERS; and the name of the
star is called WORMWOOD; and the third part of the
waters became wormwood; and many men died of the
waters, because they were made bitter”  (Revelation
8:10-11).

-     What “Great Star From Heaven?”  A missile is a great
star?  No, a bomb cannot be equated with a “Star From
Heaven” as you implied.  Also, this implies that GOD
will be shooting something, as it is coming from
heaven.  So God will be shooting these balls of fire?
NUCLEAR WEAPONS DO NOT HAVE GREAT BALLS OF FIRE FROM
HEAVEN.  STRETCH IT, TWIST IT, TURN IT, BUT THAT IS
NOT WHAT HAPPENS.  Again, this also implies that God
is shooting them as well.

•     4.  Let’s use a more extensive part of The Book of
Revelation:  “8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the
street of the great city, which spiritually is called
Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9  And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and
nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an
half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put
in graves.”

You say that QUOTE:  “How do you suppose everyone in
the world will be able to see their dead bodies at one
time?  Live television with satellite transmissions,
possibly even the internet.”

The whole phrase indicates that the bodies will be in the
STREET OF THE GREAT CITY, i.e., where everyone can see
them.  This does not say everyone in all the nations.  Egypt
was a major country, with people from around the world.

Read it closely.  There is more:

•     5.  “10  And they that dwell upon the earth shall
rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send
gifts one to another; because these two prophets
tormented them that dwelt on the earth.  11  And after
three days and an half the spirit of life from God
entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and
great fear fell upon them which saw them."

-     Did that happen?  I must have been watching CSI:
Cucamonga

“12  And they heard a great voice from heaven saying
unto them, Come up hither.  And they ascended up to
heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.  13
And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and
the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake
were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were
affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.”

Also missed that...when is that coming?

•     6.  QUOTE:  "running to and fro" could be equated to
automobiles.”

Could it not equate to horseback?  To
Trains?  To Ships?  To Planes? (that rhymed).  What
about bicycles?  Most likely, this could also relate
to marathons, could it not?  Tell me how this is not
the case.  How does “running to and fro” mean more
about automobiles than marathons?  As far as the
information, do not forget the Roman Empire, who had
an intricate Postal system, carrying hundreds of
messages across hundreds of miles...in one day.
Please, tell me how this quote sounds more appropriate
now than before.

•     7.  How do any of these quotes relate more today,
than they will 500 years from now?   We will have
faster vehicles, more weapons, faster information,
more diseases, greed...and any other item you’d like
to add.  In fact, this has gone on and on:  Swords to
spears to arrows.  Then from guns to cannons.  Cannons
to machine guns and vehicular.  Maybe we are only in
step 5 of 50 towards the apocalypse?  Is that not
possible?

•     8.  Again, you have never answered:  When is this
supposed to happen?  Five years?  Ten years?  Twenty?
You must have SOME knowledge.

 

18

 

From:  Eternal Paradise
To:  Jorge
Date:  Saturday, March 19, 2005 6:47 PM

 

1

 

     You said "Jeremiah 50 refers to an attack on Babylon, not the Rapture or the End Times.  All references and similarities to nuclear war have no merit".

 

     Ok, let us forget about nuclear war for a moment.  As you should know, various books of the Bible recount the same events over and over.  Here are the major passages that recount Babylon's final destruction  (Isaiah 13:19-22, Jeremiah 50:39-40, Jeremiah 51:41-43, Revelation 18:1-2).  All of them discuss the same chain of events--Babylon being completely destroyed, never to be inhabited again--and by reading the chapters each of the passages are contained in, you will realize they are all speaking of the End Times.

 

     Just read Revelation 18, where we hear how Babylon has fallen once and for all--the same event that is repeated in the Jeremiah and Isaiah passages.  Then read Revelation 19 where we hear about the end of the War of Armageddon by the return of the Lord Jesus Christ and the casting of the Antichrist and False Prophet into the Lake of Fire.  All of this happens within the same time period that Babylon falls.  So the events of Jeremiah 50 you pointed out are End Times events, and we can conclude that Babylon will be destroyed by nuclear war, if not by asteroids and/or comets as well.

 

2    

 

     In your response to the concept of a nuclear war changing the Earth's orbit or rotation, you provided this quote:  “The idea of the Earth's orbit or rotation being disturbed is a common catastrophe theme, exploited in movies such as The Day the Earth Caught Fire, not to mention the theories of Velikovsky."

 

     We could go back and forth all day with the views of different scientists, but it won't do any good.  Some of them say a nuclear war could cause such an event, and some of them say otherwise.  We should keep in mind the people that give us this kind of information--the media--alter information to suit their purposes.  Perhaps your quote is another one of the media's attempts to hide information from the people in order to avoid a public scare.  There are people that might not want us to know a polar shift is possible, because its effects can be far worse than the forces capable of generating them.  For instance, we can eventually recover from a nuclear incident to some degree, but if Earth's orbit is permanently changed, there will be permanent climate changes and so forth around the entire world that we can not recover from.

 

     However, I do encourage people to listen to news sources when they actually do provide critical, possibly frightening, information.  In the following quotes, we hear what they say may have happened after the tsunami-generated earthquake in December 2004:
 

     "U.S. scientists said just after the quake that it may have permanently accelerated the Earth's rotation, shortening days by a fraction of a second, and caused the planet to wobble on its axis.

     Richard Gross, a geophysicist with NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California, theorized that a shift of mass towards the Earth's center during the quake caused the planet to spin three millionths of a second faster and tilt about 2.5 cm on its axis."  (http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/28892/story.htm)

 

     So if an earthquake could affect the planet's orbit or rotation, why could a massive nuclear attack (which can cause earthquakes) not do the same thing?

 

3

 

     Next you asked about this quote:  “And the third angel sounded, and there
fell A GREAT STAR FROM HEAVEN, BURNING as it were A LAMP, AND IT FELL UPON THE THIRD PART OF THE RIVERS, AND UPON THE FOUNTAINS OF WATERS; and the name of the star is called WORMWOOD; and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter”  (Revelation 8:10-11).

      

     You asked what "A GREAT STAR" has to do with nuclear weapons.  If you read the text following that quote, you'll see the writer points out the word "WORMWOOD" is the Ukrainian word "CHERNOBYL".  I am sure you remember Chernobyl--where a massive nuclear catastrophe occurred and plagued the earth.  Here is another dynamite selection concerning this topic:

 

     Revelation 8:10-11

    "And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; and the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter."

     What do these things symbolize?

     First we read that the third angel sounded. Revelation 8 records the first of the Seven Trumpets of the end time. This prophecy is given as the third in a sequence of seven events that would serve as signs of Jesus' coming drawing nearer and nearer.

     The second thing we read is that a great star will fall from heaven. In Bible prophecy, when a single star is said to fall, it means that the event is going to be catastrophic. Many teach that this prophecy is of a meteor named Wormwood striking the earth and poisoning the water. To disprove this theory, we need only look one chapter ahead in Revelation 9:1. There, another star is said to fall to signal the arrival of a man called Abaddon in Hebrew and Apollyon in Greek. Both names mean "the Destroyer." In our passage above, the star simply signals the onset of a catastrophic event.

     Thirdly, whatever this star represents will burn as a lamp and poison a third of the waters, killing many men. And, of course, it will be called "Wormwood."

     What Is Wormwood?

     According to Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, wormwood is "a European plant (Artemisia Absinthium) yielding a bitter slightly aromatic dark green oil." Wormwood has been in use for thousands of years, including the region of the modern nation Ukraine. In Ukraine, the herb wormwood is called chernobyl. In days of old, the people of this region used the herb for medicinal purposes, and the dark green oil would turn their tongues black. The Ukrainian word for "black" is chernin, so they called the herb we call "wormwood," chernobyl.

     For those of you who remember the news of 1986, you probably remember the Chernobyl nuclear accident. The accident occurred at one of the reactors at the Chernobyl nuclear power plant in Ukraine when one of the scientists there decided to disengage the safety devices on the number four nuclear reactor and conduct an experiment.

     The experiment began by lowering the charged rods into the reactor which produces nuclear power. Soon after, things went horribly wrong. The scientist attempted to raise the rods back out of the reactor, but because the safeties were disengaged, the rods had warped from the heat and couldn't be raised. The Chernobyl nuclear power plant was experiencing a full-scale nuclear meltdown. The facility, the town, and the surrounding area, and even to the encompassing region had to be ordered evacuated.

     Since the rods were by then fused in place, power began to build up within the reactor. Over time, the pressure because too great, and with a massive nuclear explosion, the plant erupted. The 1,000-ton concrete lid over the reactor was blasted miles into the air. Over ten times the radioactivity released at the bombing of Hiroshima in World War II was released at Chernobyl. Bulldozers had to be brought in bury the remains of the plant in an effort to reduce the radiation that would leak into the environment. Afterward, more bulldozers had to come bury the first ones because they had absorbed so much radiation. The effort may have helped a little, but not enough. That region of Ukraine is still a no-man's wasteland nearly 20 years later. The finest home in Pypriat will cost you absolutely nothing because it is absolutely uninhabitable.

     Burning As A Lamp

     The lamps in the days that John wrote this prophecy in Revelation were oil lamps. Inside one of these lamps was a reservoir filled with lamp oil and a hole where the flame could feed slowly off the oil contained inside the lamp.

     The nuclear fire at Chernobyl was not a mere gas or oil fire. It was a nuclear fire. The fuel the fire drew on was unmoderated from an entire nuclear facility. This fire was so intense that it burned for two weeks. The fire fighters did all they could imagine, but no measure they took made much of an effect. Fire fighters poured in from the surrounding areas from far and wide around the whole region of the Chernobyl power plant. Most of those fire fighters died very soon after. Those that weren't melted or who didn't escape as ribbons of flesh dangling from bone died from the after effects in hospitals, loaded with Chernobyl's nuclear radioactivity.

     The Waters

     Remember that the prophecy states that it is the waters that cause so much death.

     The effects of Chernobyl continue to be incredibly severe and wide spread. The nuclear cloud burst about a mile in the air over Chernobyl, and the jet stream carried the fallout westward over nearly all of Europe. Some was carried the opposite direction over Asia. Some even made it all the way to North America. But, that was not the end of the event.

     As the clouds drifted over Asia, Europe, the Mediterranean, the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans, and North America, rains fell incessantly for five days. Rain is composed of that which composes the clouds. In this case, the rain was composed of the fallout of the Chernobyl nuclear disaster. Rains fell upon the rivers, upon the springs (fountains of the deep), and upon the lakes, seas, and oceans. It soaked through the soil into the ground water. The rain poisoned everything with the nuclides it carried. From the soil, to the animals, to the plants, to the people who drank the waters and ate the plants and animals--all were infected. Entire herds and flocks all across Europe had to be slaughtered because of their level of contamination. All the while, the cloud continued to spread and expand farther and farther around the world...

     Over 125,000 have died from the disaster at Chernobyl, and over 2,000,000 across Europe are infected as a result of the fallout. The rest of the numbers will be seen as the nuclides come out of dormancy. The nuclide released at Chernobyl lies dormant in the bone marrow and has a half life of 30 years. Thyroid cancer rates sky rocketed over 248 times. The experts say the worst is yet to come and will be made manifest during the coming generation.

     The lingering and lasting effects of Chernobyl are immeasurable and unprojectable.

     Conclusion

     Here we have a prophecy that states a catastrophic event will unfold. The subject in question would be called "Wormwood." Wormwood will burn as a lamp, it will poison a third of the waters, and it will cause many to die.

     The Ukrainian word for "Wormwood" is Chernobyl. You would read in a Ukrainian Bible that Chernobyl will cause these events. In 1986, at Chernobyl, a catastrophic event occurred. It melted down and burned for weeks on end, feeding from the nuclear fuel contained within the facility. As a result, the poisons were released into the air and water of Europe, the Mediterranean, Asia, and into North America over the Atlantic. Droves are dying still today because of this disaster.

     The Third Trumpet of Revelation 8:10-11 sounded in April of 1986, between one and two in the morning! We are living the end time!  (http://home.earthlink.net/~duncan1958/e_cttow.html)

 

4

 

     Next are the Two Witnesses.  You said this quote does not necessarily imply that everyone in the world will see the Two Witnesses' dead body at one time:  “And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.”  

 

     You said it might just be saying everyone living in the "great city" will be able to see their dead bodies.  But when God says something in a certain way, He tends to repeat Himself in various books of the Bible to better enlighten us, like I told you before concerning your Babylon-nuke question.  I ran a search on the word "kindreds" on www.bible.com and found it 8 times in 8 different verses of the KJV Bible:  (1 Chronicles 16:28, Psalms 22:27, Psalms 96:7, Acts 3:25, Revelation 1:7, Revelation 7:9, Revelation 11:9, Revelation 13:7)  In all cases, the word "kindreds" is found in phrases that apply to of all nations of the earth.  You will have to read all of the passages and the text that surrounds them on your own, but Iet me quickly compare two of them side-by-side:  

 

     "And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half"  (Revelation 11:9).  This quote refers to the dead bodies of the Two Witnesses that everyone in the world will see at the same time.

 

     "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds and tongues and nations"  (Revelation 13:7)  This quote refers to the Antichrist.  Now is it saying the Antichrist will only have power over a group of people, or will he have power over all nations of the earth? 

 

     So yes, the dead bodies of the Two Witnesses will be viewable by all nations of the earth at the same time, and that is only possible by television with satellite transmission, possibly even the internet--technology born in the 20th century.

 

5

 

     You also asked if the death of the Two Witnesses and their resurrection has happened yet.  The answer is no.  Those events will only take place during the Tribulation Period, which has not begun yet.  That time period will begin after the Rapture takes place.  It is important to realize the difference between the End Times and the Tribulation Period.  Yes, we are living in the End Times, but the Tribulation Period has not begun yet.

 

6

 

     You asked if "running to and fro" could be equated to horseback, trains, ships, planes, bicycles, or marathons.  Well they could be in any other case.  But let us not forget the context of the quote we are looking at.  Daniel 12:4:  “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”  The quote itself says we are talking about the "time of the end".  But just read the entire chapter, Daniel 12, if you are not convinced.  You will clearly see it entirely deals with the End Times.  Here is a quote from that chapter:
 

     "And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation"  (Daniel 12:1-2). 

 

     "...there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation...."  (Daniel 12:2)  That sounds a lot like Matthew 24:21:  "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

 

     Both passages speak of the same time period, the Tribulation Period--the final stretch of the End Times era.  When we talk about "running to and fro" and "knowledge shall be increased" in the End Times era, we must be talking about some sort of transportation that exists in that time period  (automobiles--20th and 21st century innovations), as well as the explosion of information (the Information Age, which is fueled by computers and other technology--20th and 21st century innovations).

 

7 and 8

 

     You asked "How do any of these quotes relate more today, than they will 500 years from now?"

 

     Keep this quote in mind:  "...when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.  Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled"  (Luke 21:31-33).
 

     Now recall the two signs I pointed out before--the re-establishment of the state of Israel seemingly in 1948 and the formation of the European Union in 1992--then recall the sign pointed out in section three of this post--the 1986 Chernobyl incident.  Now that these signs and many others have been fulfilled, our generation "shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled"  (Luke 21:31-33).  As to your question, under normal circumstances, our generation would not be alive in 500 years.  The quotes clearly apply to the here and now.  (If we are the final End Times generation, all of Christ's true followers will be alive in 500 years because they will be given eternal life.) 

 

     Now you may be wondering--how long is a generation?  Here is what an expert says:

 

     "...in Mark 1:17, there were 42 generations, and that is from Abraham to Christ, a total of 2,160 years. So when one divides 42 into 2,160, it comes out to basically 51.5 years. So a generation is not 40 years as we so often said, or others have said, but 51.4.

    

     Then when we get to Luke chapter 3, verses 23 to 38, there is 77 generations from Adam to Christ, and that’s 4,000 years. When one divides 77 into 4,000, he also comes out to 51.9 years. So a generation is 51 years....

           

     ...Adam lived to be 930 years, Genesis 5:5, and Methuselah 969 years. So you can’t say a generation is 900 or 1,000 years. God puts them all together from Adam right up until His Son in Luke 3:23 to 38 and it comes out to 51.9....

 

     A generation is about 51 years.  So now you are probably thinking, ok, so if I add 51 years to 1948 when Israel was re-established, I get 1999.  Wait a minute, that year has come and gone, and Jesus has not returned yet!

 

     I did not want to reveal this information so soon, but since you have asked about it, I will do so.  The prophecy concerning the re-establishment of the state of Israel may not be that clear-cut.  Most of the top religious scholars will tell you it is not pointing to the year 1948--when the state of Israel's Declaration of Independence was made--but to 1967, when Israel occupied the Gaza strip and the West Bank at the end of one of the Israeli-Palestinian conflicts--when the Jews captured Jerusalem--when Israel blossomed and truly became established.

 

     If you add the length of a generation--51 years--to 1967, you get 2018.  I will go on a limb and say that I believe that is the last probable year the Tribulation Period might end on, which would usher in the return of the Lord Jesus Christ.  I believe the years 2005-2018 are prime for the Rapture, the Tribulation Period, and the return of the Lord Jesus Christ, and so do many if not all of the religious scholars I continue to reference.

 

     Jesus says "when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.  But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only"  (Matthew 24:33-36).  So no one will know the day or hour of Jesus's return but Father God, and no one should try to set an exact date, but everyone should realize His return is VERY near.

 

     Concerning the Rapture and the Tribulation Period:

     

     "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape"  (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3).

 

     The Day of the Lord will come "as a thief in the night", with God taking His true followers away from Earth in the Rapture and bringing them to Heaven.  This will indicate the Tribulation Period has begun.  The Antichrist will then rise and sign a false peace treaty with Israel and the surrounding nations for 7 years, and people will shout "peace and safety"!  Though the first 3 and 1/2 years may be peaceful, "sudden destruction cometh upon them" (1 Thessalonians 5:3) in the last 3 and 1/2 years when the Antichrist's peace treaty is broken and all manner of hell breaks loose.

 

     It would appear the time of "peace and safety" is near, with the greatest stride towards peace being made on February 8, 2005--when the Palestinian and Israeli leaders announced a cease-fire.  Sure, they have attempted this before and failed, but with the death of former Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and the movement of democracy across the entire world in 2005 (of which we see success in events like the historic Iraqi elections), this peace agreement is most likely the one that will lead to the era of "peace and safety" that indicates the Tribulation Period has arrived.

 

     Could all of this be another End Times false alarm?  Considering all of the signs I have spoken of that apply to this generation alone (and many of the ones I haven't spoken of), I highly doubt it.

 

 

 

19

 

From:  Jorge
To:  Eternal Paradise
Date:  Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:03 PM

 

I sort of glanced over your responses.  The most
interesting point is that you "go out on a limb" and
cite 2018 as your date of destruction.  I am glad.  I
will wait for you on Jan. 1, 2019, and welcome you to
the side of the atheists...though I'm sure something
will come up at that time..."oh, they have invented a
Widget...clearly this is the sign of the end of
times!"  Oh well, I was hoping to save another life...

I will try to respond to your email.  I'm still
waiting to hear about whether you:

1.     Feel that homosexuals should be murdered.

2.     Feel the same about adulterers.

3.     Feel that if a man touches a woman's "flow", they
should both be severely punished.

4.     Share the other edicts of God about morality that I
pointed out.

5.     Perhaps you feel that some of these laws no longer
exist, as Jesus has amended them (heh).  However, I'm
curious if you would have supported these BEFORE the
times of Jesus.  Or, at what point would you feel it's
okay to kill someone?


 

20

 

From:  Eternal Paradise
To:  Jorge
Date:  Saturday, March 19, 2005 7:54 PM

 

     I am not saying 2018 is the "date of destruction", as my full comments explain, but 2005-2018 is the prime time for these prophecies to be fulfilled.  If the "date of destruction" was 2018, we would have to subtract 7 years from that (inclusive) for the Tribulation Period, indicating it starts in 2012....  But it could happen earlier than that....  No dates are certain, but everyone needs to consider the possibilities. 

     Do I think any of the people you mentioned should be murdered or punished?  No.  And you poked fun at it, but those laws do not still apply (though everyone should honor the Ten Commandments).  I actually came across an excellent reading on this topic the other day at http://www.raptuready.com/r/faq/faq36.html.ra.php:

     Do Christians need to adhere to the laws of the Old Testament?

     The people of the Old Testament proved our need for a savior. They were held to laws about sacrificing animals to purify them of their sins, laws about food preparation and consumption, laws about righteous living, and laws about a host of other topics. A person had to work daily to keep clean and worthy of God’s mercy. God’s desire has always been to redeem the lost. But, before He could do that, He needed to prove that man was unable to create his own worthiness in the face of God’s holiness. The Bible stresses, "Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, 'The righteous will live by faith'" (Gal. 3:11). God’s perfect plan was to let man flounder for a while as he tried to earn God’s favor. Then, when the situation proved hopeless, God came as the Messiah to be the final, pure sacrifice for the sins of man.

     Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, which required a blood sacrifice for the remission of sins. “In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness” (Heb. 9:22). And, Ephesians 1:7 says, “In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.” Jesus was the final, pure, spotless lamb, sacrificed as payment for the sins of man, that we might have everlasting life. The New Testament is our covenant with God under the blood of Christ. In it, we are instructed about living a moral lifestyle and serving others so that they may know God. Galatians 5:14 says, “The entire law is summed up in a single command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

     A further point is necessary: Many people, even entire denominations, build their faith around their acts of service and good deeds. Not only does this fail to earn them entrance into God’s Kingdom—only salvation through the blood of Christ can do that—but it tramples all over the cross of Christ. If mankind were able to earn God’s favor, He would have let us do just that—instead of sending His only Son to die. If we continue to live as though we have something of worth and can earn God’s favor, then we are denying the powerful and complete work of the cross.

     Here is an interesting example.  Adam and Eve's family members were allowed to intermarry in order to populate the earth.  Incest was acceptable in part of the Old Testament times, because it was required.  But incest is condemned later on and in the New Testament.  People need to realize that when God presents something in the Bible that seems to contradict something in another portion of the Bible, He is aware, and there are reasons for these things that fit into His eternal plan.

 
 
 
    
     Do you still not believe the return of the Lord Jesus Christ is near?  Here are links to resources we will continue to update so you are better enlightened.